You’ve likely heard about Rich Schefren’s series of three ‘manifesto’ reports. They were excellent ‘value for time’ because they explained very foundational concepts in an easy to understand manner. They were a little verbose, but considering just how much value was jam-packed into them, it was well worth wading through a few extra words.
But not this time around!
Because the THEME of Rich’s latest report and follow up is INFORMATION OVERLOAD.
Having struggled and suffered through his recent ‘Part 1′ report, which was some 60 pages long, I was so frustrated I wrote down a summary of what’s in it… that was just 350 WORDS - and captured the essence of what took me 45 minutes to read.
Spell ‘information overload’ if you can, now!
Think, “What could be causing it?”
Now, the second part’s coming out soon - and a series of posts on Rich’s blog are heralding the coming. It’s a classic case of ‘information overload CAUSED by verbosity’
For instance, there’s this post from August 17th titled “When is Enough, Enough?” that’s 1,310 words long.
It can be summarized in this short phrase:
“You already know all that you need to know. So just start doing it! And don’t worry too much about making mistakes - most aren’t fatal”
Am I the only one that finds this paradox interesting?
Do you also think a report, blog post or other medium explaining why we shouldn’t let ourselves get bogged down by ‘information overload’ should ITSELF not contribute to the problem - by being unnecessarily too long?
Me, I’m going to stick with my solution to information overload - stop following posts that don’t ‘walk the talk’
Even if they come from people like Rich Schefren who has taught me so much!
25 Comments Received
August 18th, 2007 @3:19 am
Amen! I’m to the point where I’m skim reading and hitting the delete button real quick when there’s too much wordiness. When I read the Manifesto tomes, I ended up with about 3 paragraphs highlighted that said it all to me.
Thanks for reminding me to keep my own writing from sinking in the smelly quagmire of verbosity.
August 18th, 2007 @4:57 am
Hey Doc. You have done it. It is very bold to be able to stand up and criticize someone whom we love and adore. And learn from.
I agree. Rich makes some nice points in his posts and manifestos but dwells too much on sundries. So may be you can take it up on yourself to provide meaningful summaries whenever he makes a post
August 18th, 2007 @10:43 am
Hi Dr Mani,
well done, i stopped to read the emails of Rich these last two months.
he remind me some bad teachers in school. They talk for an hour, and you can summarize it in one sentence.
I was in his coaoching program and i just lost some times and money with his “Coach Talk Program”.
I was quite disapointed, that a coach don’t communicate with his audience.
For the overload, he is very good at talking for hours and grabbing your attention.
He follow a patern of “Most people don’t realise…” “Most entrepreneurs don’t understand….”
:edited:
Thanks for your contribution to this industry Dr Mani
Halille
August 18th, 2007 @11:42 am
Wow, it takes guts to be able to speak out like that - its a thought that’s been on my mind, and I believe Ross Goldberg made a reference to it in one of his emails after the release of the first part of the document - so I didn’t even bother to get around to reading it.
Thanks for your honest review.
August 18th, 2007 @12:14 pm
hey dr. mani,
you are really missing the point here and it’s not the first time…
maybe for you… a sentence is enough to close the knowing - doing gap. but most people struggle with the issue far too often and for far too long for a glib statement to solve all.
a soundbite won’t solve any real problem - and i wonder how often in your medical practice you would say “you have a bad heart and will die within weeks” - that would sum it all up but would be unhelpful to the patient.
with your line of thinking…maybe everything should be reduced to just soundbites on all medical, legal, political and financial issues - this way we can all be exposed to everything, remember nothing, feel artificially full of knowledge, and yet not change anything in our behaviors. (oh yeah, that’s where we are heading… and you are leading the way)
when the doctrine part 2 comes out… you are going to be very surprised when i prove to you that this line of thinking is exactly the problem that is holding most people back.
“just give me the bullets” , “just give me the step by step” - do you really think that jay abraham ever asks that question when he’s learning something new? for that matter…do you think anyone ever got to guru status by just skimming summaries and sound-bites in their field?
do you think i asked jay for “the cliff notes” in my consultations with him? absolutely not! i wanted to understand how he thought so i could learn to think that way too - i did - and have made more millions from it than i ever could have hoped for. I challenge anyone to say they could incorporate jay’s thinking from skimming a one page summary.
i am surprised at you dr. mani. did you completely forget that jay even told you he had read claude hopkin’s book over 50 times? why do you think he did that? why didn’t he just read the table of contents? do you remember what jay said about it in the seminar of ours you attended?
he said how egotistical it would be to think that he could in one sitting and one reading learn all that someone had spent a lifetime accruing.
yet you keep thinking what i work on for a month can be summarized in a paragraph or what i work on for a day can be summarized in a sentence.
trust me… i have a lot better things to do then just to simply pontificate on my blog, or write fluffy reports - i spend a lot of time thinking about what people need to be successful and dedicate as much as possible to put that information out.
to know someone who has influence like you, and who has also been a fan of my work (and the work of my office - remember us getting you that visa so you could come to the US) would not give me the benefit of the doubt, that there really is a method behind madness, and that i don’t have my readers best interest at heart is truly disheartening.
that’s all i have to say,
rich schefren
August 19th, 2007 @3:57 am
> It is very bold to be able to stand up and
> criticize someone whom we love and adore. And > learn from.
Arun, the criticism is NOT of Rich Schefren, for whom I have immense respect and admiration, but for the length and wordiness of a report that could EASILY have been shorter and a more gripping read… especially when it is on the topic of ‘information overload’.
My ‘criticism’ is of the issue, not the person.
Dr.Mani
August 19th, 2007 @4:21 am
Rich, thanks for sparing the time to comment on this post.
> you are really missing the point here and
> it’s not the first time…
Maybe I am. And it won’t be the last either. I do not claim to be the smartest cookie in the class!
> maybe for you… a sentence is enough to close
>the knowing - doing gap. but most
> people struggle with the issue far too often
> and for far too long for a glib
> statement to solve all.
I agree absolutely, but still believe a note about ‘information overload’ should be higher on the INFORMATION and go lower on the OVERLOAD.
> a soundbite won’t solve any real problem -
> and i wonder how often in your
> medical practice you would say “you have a
> bad heart and will die within
> weeks” - that would sum it all up but would be unhelpful to the patient.
Medical analogies, taken out of context, never make sense - and you’d be surprised if I told you the answer to your question!
> this way we can all be exposed to
> everything, remember nothing, feel
> artificially full of knowledge, and yet not change anything in our behaviors.
> (oh yeah, that’s where we are heading… and you are leading the way)
I’ll disagree with this contention.
You’re right in that LEARNING requires repetition and review to truly internalize, understand and apply.
But remember, you hit the nail on the head by telling us that no one has the time to learn EVERYTHING.
So one has to pick and choose. What shall we learn? From whom? How?
Once that picking process is done, we delve deep into the nitty gritty of what we learn.
Now, you’re telling us we should learn from you about beating ‘Information Overload’.
And the way you’re telling me that is by providing me with MORE information overload - by being unduly verbose, taking 20 words to say what can be done in 5, or 3 sentences where 1 would suffice.
With due respect, I’d suggest you’ve moved to Phase 2 of your teaching (which comes AFTER one has decided to learn from you) while most of the skimmers of your blog and manifesto are still in Phase 1, trying to decide if you are the one they want to learn from.
> do you think i asked jay for “the cliff
> notes” in my consultations with him?
> absolutely not! i wanted to understand how
> he thought so i could learn to
> think that way too
That came AFTER you decided to learn from Jay. At that point, it is perfectly appropriate to teach using a different style, approach and system. Just my opinion, of course, coming at it from the angle of a teacher of highly qualified specialists in a medical field for over 2 DECADES.
> i am surprised at you dr. mani. did you
> completely forget that jay even told
> you he had read claude hopkin’s book over 50
> times? why do you think he did
> that?
I’ll take a guess, coz I sure don’t KNOW.
Jay likely read the blurb on the cover, or heard someone mention it as a high quality book.
He likely skimmed the first few pages, or a few random samples to judge for himself whether it was really valuable, met his expectations from the read, and taught him something new.
If the answers convinced him, he’d probably have read the book through, cover to cover.
Having done that, and learned a lot, he went back and read it fifty more times, to get the most value from it.
Notice the progression from Phase 1 to Phase 2 and beyond.
I’m willing to bet, though, that Jay didn’t pick up that title off the bookshelf at his B&N or Borders, promising himself he’s going to sit himself right down and read that book one end to the other FIFTY times - before he did anything else!
> yet you keep thinking what i work on for a
> month can be summarized in a
> paragraph or what i work on for a day can be
> summarized in a sentence.
My friend, the DEEPEST philosophies the world’s GREATEST people have learned in a LIFETIME can be summarized in short sentences. Or few words.
It may need time and effort to interpret them, and that’s the role of a teacher or mentor or guru.
> to know someone who has influence like you,
> and who has also been a fan of my > work
> (and the work of my office - remember us
> getting you that visa so you
> could come to the US) would not give me the benefit of the doubt
You’ve drawn too many conclusions, many far-flung, and taken this way too personal, Rich.
I not only ‘have been’ a fan, I still am an admirer and respect your business achievements a lot.
The visa you helped me get was a real benefit at a critical time in my education, and for that I will owe you forever. Don’t think I forget and lack appreciation for what you (and Sheila) did for me at that time. I mention it to many people at various times.
I did give you the benefit of the doubt, with the first manifesto in this series, which was 65 pages of fluff. And when I see it repeated in a needlessly (in my opinion, of course) long blog post, I called it the way I saw it. Nothing personal or even critical about it - just a point of view.
You could have chosen to release an ‘executive summary’ version of your manifesto after I mentioned it earlier. Indeed, I did create the Cliff notes version for quick skimmers - and many people appreciated it.
If I must criticize you personally for anything, it’ll be for choosing to ignore the feedback of your vocal critics (like me) who care about your message and expertise reaching the maximum number of targeted prospects.
In the end, it is your call to read what you wish into my rants and ramblings on my blog, Rich.
All success
Dr.Mani
August 19th, 2007 @4:50 am
It is great to see, or read, great minds even in their less amiable moments.
August 19th, 2007 @8:23 am
Hello Rich and Dr. Mani,
You are very pationate in your comments and I personally congratulate each of you.
So often we are left to really wonder if the people who lead us are actually human. When we encounter our first real challenge in following them, we chalk it all up to not being as special, or as talented, or as capable as they are.
Stemming from a common belief that showing our failings will demonstrate weakness, many of us try to lead others without allowing them to see who we really are, with all of our quirks and common personality shortcomings.
We’ve all heard the saying, “Lead by example”.
We almost always forget that those we lead need to see us make mistakes, come up short, defend our ideas with over-the-top passion, and fail miserably, so they can see us learn and grow and thus demonstrate a realistic work in progress.
I’d like to go even further and offer that watching this work in progress in someone we know, engenders the kind of loyalty that truly moves us as followers to attempt to be all we can be…simply because we can say that we’ve seen someone else who is less than perfect… achieve success.
I suppose many will read the above posts in disgust at how uncivilized it all seems. I believe this stems from the portrayal on television and in movies of so many of our hero’s life stories without letting us see their real life struggles, or the inner battles they faced.
I love Rich’s passion and have determined to follow him closely especially if he will allow us to see shades of his true personality.
As for Dr. Mani…after being a subscriber of yours for quite awhile now, I get the feeling I have known one or two people like you, who say what they feel without mincing words. I suspect that most people who truly know you, say you acted out of a true need to be an efficient professional, without malice or spite.
I thank both of you for your comments and I suggest you always try to be as real as possible remembering whom it is you’re trying to be real to…a room of multi-millionaires? …a class of doctors in training? or a blog reader trying to become the best he/she can be like us regular folk…with all of our shortcomings…
Yours in all my shortcomings,
Roger Auge
aim4itnow@gmail.com
AIM 2000 Inc. Canada
August 19th, 2007 @10:43 am
Hi Mani,
I must admit I didn’t think this subject would get so personal, and I can see where you’re both coming from.
As for Rich’s information - I completely agree that it was too verbose. In fact, I probably paid less attention to it than if it was shorter and almost didn’t even bother to look at it to start with due to the length.
So, on the one-hand I agreed with your assessment.
However, I don’t really know Rich, so I can’t make any assumptions about his motives and I can understand completely that providing more information in order for people with different knowledge levels, experience levels, and learning strategies is probably better than a summary which leaves a lot of detail missing.
I do a lot of lecturing and speaking and I’m always looking for a way to turn technical information into metaphor or story language in order for people to enjoy the learning without the ‘techy’ stuff or detail getting in the way.
Since I only know Rich by reputation I can do nothing but take him at his word and congratulate him on taking the time and effort to share his insights.
As for you Mani, we’ve interacted more personally, so I know that your focus is definitely on helping people.
So, I can only conclude that I agree with both of you to some extent. You certainly haven’t said anything personally derogatory about Rich (quite the opposite), so I was a little disappointed for him to raise (what I think should’ve been personal) the issue of where he helped you - I’m sure you haven’t forgotten that, and it seemed like a cheap shot.
Maybe there’s benefit from a little controversy sometimes, and maybe you did ‘Milk’ Rich’s name in promoting your ’summary’, which I suppose could’ve been as much to do with his response as whether he disagreed with your statements or not.
I certainly feel that there’s a case for providing the information in both long and short form in order to more effectively get it in a useable form for the intended readers.
I hope this issue doesn’t spoil your friendship as you’re both good guys who are doing a lot to help people and I’m sure that help would be more effective if you supported each other.
Regards,
Andy
August 19th, 2007 @2:36 pm
It’s a fair and good ‘ring-fight’ I should say. Fair that you both have not resorted to name-calling, and audience-manipulation. Good in that we can learn more intimately about how you both spontaneously think and behave when under attack.
Good guys you both are, though Dr. Mani seems the one a tad less friendly, in his second reply to Rich. Maybe it’s all written in the haste of the moment.
Aside from that, I thought Dr. Mani has spunk, and more insights that surprised me. This guy is finally getting more real, I concluded. Is a good thing.
August 19th, 2007 @4:25 pm
With all due respect to Rich, I find that I am in more agreement with Doc’s line of thinking.
Powerful content needs little fluff.
As a former Law Enforcement Instructor, I have found that the more profound a statement, or principle, the less said, the better.
The fact is, important messages can oft times get lost in the rhetoric. Imbedding your key content in page after page of “filler” can cause your audience to drift away from the targeted point that you originally intended to make.
That’s just my 2 cents.
Mike Rogers
August 19th, 2007 @4:51 pm
Roger said:
“I suggest you always try to be as real as possible…”
Goodstuff said:
“This guy is finally getting more real, I concluded.”
And THAT to me is the biggest lesson from all this lovely feedback. I’ve learned just how UNREAL I’ve probably been sounding and appearing to my own list and readers!
Thanks… I’ll certainly continue being more REAL - though I won’t seem much different (to myself!)
Nice points, Andy.
myniche, thanks.
Mike, thanks for your comments too.
Dr.Mani
August 20th, 2007 @12:17 am
Thanks for having the courage to express your own thoughts Mani. Thanks Rich for explaining things in your own unique way - replaying the ideas of others to make a point that may otherwise be unheard to some. Not all communications will be received as intended by the sender. Not all messengers will be understood in the same way by the same flock –Can’t that be okay without whipping out verbal body parts to see who is bigger? You know what they say when someone doth protest too much….
August 20th, 2007 @6:07 am
Doc
I never meant that you are criticizing Rich (and apologies if it came out like that). BTW, I have deep personal respect for Rich who does let out sincere and quality information through his manifestos.
It does need a lot of mental strength to oppose any action that a senior person in the same industry takes and that is what I appreciated. And I appreciate that you ducked the option of getting personal, where it could get real dirty.
The lesson to me is very simple: “Provide an executive summary of your notes/offers for those who are in hurry and then elaborate for those who need more details and convincing.”
Arun
August 20th, 2007 @6:16 am
I think, a summary can solve all the problem. There are people who understand the concept in few words. They hate to read through long articles to get that “dosage” of knowledge.
However, there are lots of people who might have difficulty in understanding the concept. There may be several people who might not accept a point of view unless backed with examples from real life.
Therefore both formats are required in my opinion.
Abhishek
August 20th, 2007 @7:22 pm
Hey, guess what? You’re both correct. One of the best lessons I learned when I took my Myers-Briggs training was to speak to ALL learners. And you can’t do using just one technique.
I learned that if you begin with a short synopsis, a metaphor about a concept, or a story example, you will satisfy the intuitives in the audience. Those are the folks who would prefer the Cliff notes version. Normally about 25% of the audience, but it can differ widely based on the learners, the topic, etc.
Then move on to satisfy those who need deeper detail, more content, etc. (normally the other 75%)
Intuitives get really BORED reading long content. Sensors need the content to learn, and they need it presented in a logical fashion.
As well, everyone is at different levels of competency and development, so that;s a factor too. As is on screen/off screeen and age, yadda yadda.
But basically, you’re both right…for different types of readers.
August 22nd, 2007 @5:35 am
WOW
I rally enjoyed this discussion and differences of opinion on how to teach.
From my personal experience, I have found that a good , no holds barred, discusson of ideas is the best way to reach a better decision than one or other approach.
My best years at work was at a compnay where he discussions and arguments were very passionate and hard- but after the discussion we all went away with the understanding that the arguments and disagreements wee about ideas and plans and nothing was a personal attack.
In my own learning experience there are some areas where I would be satisfied with a summary and get to details and different ways of explaining the content when I am ready for more details.
I have enormous respect forboth Dr. Mani and Rich and am glad to see this real, frank discussion.
I wish more ‘gurus’ would be ready to discuss when they disagree with other respected gurus. That is how students like us learn to be successful.
August 22nd, 2007 @5:12 pm
Hi Mani,
I had a boss who used to ask for a one page summary of any report. A good idea in principal but flawed in practise because he ended up knowing somethings but not enough to really understand what was happening.
That said whenever I prepare requirements reports or quotations I always put an executive summary in which is invariably longer than a page but considerably shorter than the full report.
So a summary from Rich would be nice. That said I think the amount of time he devotes to ensuring everyone (not just the tech savvy, the internet savvy or the business process savvy) understands what he’s driving at makes that unfair on him.
Better is to have people like you or I who can summarise what he says and put it onto our blog for those who want to read the short summary. And then decide if they’d like to read the rest.
Jim
PS The short version - let him write as he does and you and I, or anyone summarise because he’s offering great content for everyone.
August 23rd, 2007 @4:18 pm
hi all,
dr mani - if i took you critique too personally, i apologize for that. for the most part i have thick skin… in hindsight i can only guess that it’s my passion about the topic and the respect i have for you and your thoughts that made what you wrote appear to me as criticism (the title of the post could’ve been a contributor)of my latest writings and caused me to take it more personally than i should have.
i hope everyone realizes this doesn’t change the respect i have for dr. mani. in fact, i almost never post in forums, or on other’s blogs.
my passion about the topics i write about really stems from the point that most people never change. and even those who do, probably don’t change enough.
(case in point - even though the original manifesto ranks high on the list of many internet marketers, i would venture to guess that less 10% of them have ever figured out the value of their time, created process maps, built long-term relationships with key outsourcers, and really shifted from the opportunity seeker mindset to that of a strategic entrepreneur).
one of the reason why i think people in general struggle more often then they should is that they attempt to fix symptoms instead of really understanding the root causes that brought on the symptoms in the first place.
of course, along with my attempt to get to the root cause of commonly shared challenges everyone faces is the amount of writing to properly set up and explain the reasoning behind the recommendations.
personally, if i said “information overload stems from poor self-esteem” most readers would be left perplexed.
if i followed it up with the sentence “that’s why you value other’s information more than your own knowledge” it would provide more clarity but in my humble opinion it wouldn’t change many readers’ behaviors.
but, if i write a short essay (1200 words or so) on the topic, providing examples, stories, and further explanations the door to change begins to open (my opinion, of course). Then if i can get my reader to come to my blog, read the solutions and challenges of others and engage with them and me by posting their own reply… the probability of real change occuring increases dramatically.
so, that’s the method behind my madness.
in reagards to the doctrine… all i’ll say right now is…
1. many readers have told me that it really made them much more aware of the root causes contributing to the main challenges in their professional lives.
2. i mentioned in the begining of the doctrine that because of where i was going with it i had to first lay out the factors that were contributing to the major problems most marketers are struggling with.
3. in the docrtine i highlighted a lot more than just information overload. issues such as interruption overload, continuous partial attention, the paradox of choice, etc…
4. unfortunately due to time constraints i was unable to finish the best part of the doctrine which is all the tactics, techniques and strategies - so i released what i had and promised to follow it up with a second part.
5. what i reveal in the second part will truly blow people away (i am sure of it)- but whether they really grasp the “WHY” of all it and whether they act on it or not will depend on whether or not they read the first part.
5. the second part of the doctrine will be released within the next 30 days or so.
so thank you to all of you for your feedback - for those who know me, they know that i actively seek it out, listen, and reflect on all of it.
to higher profits,
rich schefren
August 23rd, 2007 @4:30 pm
Rich, thanks for taking the time to post such an eloquent response.
We’re really both on the same side, trying to get your critically important message out to as many people as possible - in a fashion that appeals to as many of them as is realistic.
All we’re debating is the ‘best way’ to do this - and even there, we’re still batting for the same team… and just as some are better at playing fast bowlers, and others are at spin, there are some learners who need elaborate detail - and others who are scanners and rapid assimilators.
Give each the form s/he’s most comfortable learning from, and everyone wins.
Thanks again for sharing your time and expertise… oh, and the passion shines through clearly
All success
Dr.Mani
November 10th, 2007 @4:27 pm
Dr. Mani,
Not bad… not bad… thanks for inviting me to read this article. Mine was a little less defensible since, in his blog, Rich refers to the swarms of attendees racing for the PLR type products tables as “idiots” rather than soul-searching why he and his team of trained minions couldn’t get their message across.
IN FACT, I THINK IT’S BECAUSE OF THE REASON YOU JUST STATED.
In this world, where technology has brought about an exponential increase in psychological fragmentation (and ADD seems epidemic), most people have the attention spans of gerbils, and will even readily admit it amidst a hail of friendly laughter.
I LOVE some of the information Rich presents. I LOVE that he presents the basis of it in some REALLY cool, well-done charts. But I think he needs to better understand what his audience members are REALLY experiencing in their private space so that he can minister to them more effectively as opposed to blaming them for not getting his message and calling them idiots.
UNLESS, of course, he failed in determining just who was his proper target audience. Either he needs to reassess his choice of target audience or he needs to reassess his delivery system.
But I have to say BRAVO to you for having the courage to speak up in a way that risked your friendship with him for the sake of unbridled honesty. That, in fact, makes you more a friend to him than is probably even obvious to most of us at first glance.
Thanks again for pointing me here.
Best wishes to everybody,
Sam
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